The Metrics Brothers

Ray Rike & Dave Kellogg

The Metrics Brothers (formerly SaaS Talk with the Metrics Brothers) is hosted by Dave "CAC" Kellogg and Ray "Growth" Rike. The Metrics Brothers provides unique insights, strategies, tactics and the metrics that are relevant to Native-AI and B2B software and SaaS companies.Each 20-minute episode will cover a topic critical to leading a B2B software company, and chalked full of practical advice that can be introduced and applied in most Native-AI, Agentic AI and B2B software and SaaS companies.

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The Metrics Brothers

Episodes (114)

Wed Mar 11th The Rule of 40 Becomes the Rule of 60
Thu Mar 5th A Tale of Two AI Futures - Citrini vs Citadel
Mon Mar 2nd ICONIQ State of AI: Bi-Annual Snapshot Report

The Metrics Brothers

Mar 11, 2026
26 minutes
24 MB

For more than a decade, the Rule of 40 has been the gold standard for measuring SaaS performance: Growth Rate + Profit Margin ≥ 40 But in today’s environment of higher interest rates, multiple compression, private equity leverage, and AI-driven cost pressures, that benchmark may no longer be enough. In this episode of the Metrics Brothers, Ray “Growth” Rike and Dave “CAC” Kellogg explore why many investors and operators are now targeting something far more ambitious: The Rule of 60. Dave walks through the history of SaaS economics, from the growth-at-all-costs era, to the rise of...

The Metrics Brothers

The Rule of 40 Becomes the Rule of 60

Ray Rike & Dave Kellogg

00:00 -25:43